Englisch Interview

Training Principles of Lei Gong Nei Quan

an interview with Torsten Kanzmeier,
founder of the style of Lei Gong Nei Quan *

KFSB:
Please let us first talk about your own education in the Chinese martial arts so we may gain an idea of how you came to develop and create your style by the name of „Lei Gong Nei Quan“. Where do you see your roots ?

T. Kanzmeier:
My roots are lying by a hundred percent within the „Tan Tien Tschüan“. For over sixteen years I was one of the first and most close students of Helmut Barthel, the founder of Tan Tien Tschüan – internal boxing.

KFSB:
Which of the training methods and fighting principles of the Tan Tien Tschüan would you define as the most meaningful ? How can this style be envisioned ?

T. Kanzmeier:
The training methods are absolutely pragmatic and are geared towards the exploration of ones own higher efficiency of physical coordination. In the same sense the fighting principles are bare of compromises, free of any fixed patterns of movement or conditioned „techniques“ and without any distance towards the adversary. This style works in it’s applications absolutely without any build-up of pressure in oneself and without transferal pressure to the opponent, without momentum – especially within punching, kicking and throwing. That means punches and kicks are starting only at the point ( and time) of contact and are transferred immediately. There is no „telegraphing“. Punches and kicks are occurring within a realm where there are no grounds for the defense-reflex.

KFSB:
Does the name of the style refer to the Tan Tien as for what it is known for within Chinese medicine (TCM) – the energy-field in the middle of the lower abdomen ?

T. Kanzmeier:
In response I quote an article from „Martial Arts #4“: „ Every practitioner knows that the Tan Tien is usually localized to be the region about three fingers below the navel of the human body. It is also referred to as „ the cinnabar field“ and considered to mean something to the liking of „living centre“. The symbol „tan“ representing ore (red)-well(deep), „tien“ standing for parceled-out field (wide/broad).“ To interpret the tan tien as this vital centre is one of many possibilities to utilize these symbols and their meaning. The combination of „deep“, „red“ and „field“ could just as well mean „heart“ or simply „internal“. In the case of TTT the translation also simply is „internal boxing“ - „boxing“ deducted as with many other Chinese fighting-arts from the [sign for] „clenched hand“ respectively „fist“.

KFSB:
You are saying that the punches of the TTT are really only starting at the point of contact with the adversary ? - So then where is the power of the punch coming from ?

T. Kanzmeier:
That’s right, there are no moves to gain momentum for punching and kicking in the TTT. But let me intervene at this point: Since the TTT has been developed by Helmut Barthel and since I am not an official proponent of his style, it is not befitting me to explain his style. - So therefore let us talk about my style, about Lei Gong Nei Quan, which I have developed -as stated earlier- based upon the personal teaching by the founder of the TTT. So likewise the punches and kicks within the Lei Gong Nei Quan have no moves to gain momentum. The transfer of force stems from outwardly momentum-less, free of wear, effortless movements, which are performed by whole-body-coordinated attunements of minuscule muscular movements and are released within contact with the opponent as pure movement versus as a collision.

KFSB:
Agreed – let’s talk about Lei Gong Nei Quan. For which reasons did you decide on the development of your own style ?

T. Kanzmeier:
My approach to teaching differs significantly to that of other styles. - I do it my way !

KFSB:
First I would like to know the meaning of the name of your style, since oftentimes the name of a style will already reveal some of the concept behind the respective system. I guess „Nei Quan „ means „internal boxing“, but what is meant by „Lei Gong“ ?

T. Kanzmeier:
This is simply my first name Torsten. Torsten is derivative of Thor. Thor is the god of thunder. The translation of „god of thunder“ into Chinese pictorial language comes to be „Lei“ Gong. So Lei Gong Nei Quan translates to „Torsten’s Internal Boxing“.

KFSB:
A style-name inclusive of a copyright – disclaimer so to speak…. Let’s go back to the punching techniques of Lei Gong Nei Quan that you’ve talked about. Could these punches be imagined as „touch and push“, or is there something else in the back ? You talked about whole-body-coordinated attunement of minuscule muscular movements – could you explain in more detail, or does one have to experience it hands-on to get an idea about it ?

T.Kanzmeier:
Yes, it is not easily described. One can only circumscribe it. It is not necessarily so, that a movement ends up as a punch, it can also become a throw or lock. It is crucial that the punch does not arrive at contact as collision (pressure) or push (pressure) but as pressure-free transfer of movement, which seems to explode within the body. The feeling of such a punch within the body is that of an explosion – very painful. Typically this type of punch does not leave the typical blue spots, since the effect occurs below the connective tissue.
I always use to demonstrate the whole-body-coordinated attunement of minuscule muscular movements with a punch to the abdomen- preferably into a fully developed „six-pack“ that basically deflects any punch or push. For this I lay my hand onto the fully tensed belly. Then I move as described above and suddenly the abdominals release to soft and I punch into it. To make it clear once more: by virtue of my special way of body-coordination I achieve the loosening of the others musculature against his will. This then enables me to move my fist deeply into his belly. In the same way one can via this approach throw without using leverage or apply locks free of detectable strength.
To really understand one cannot avoid experiencing this with ones own body. I call this type of movement also „internal movement“!

KFSB:
That sounds very interesting indeed. From my vantage point there are emerging two questions for now: How does this softening of the muscles before the punch itself come about, -and is this also applicable within the situation of a fight where one can presume that the opponent will not be willing to have the hand be „laid“ upon his belly ?

T.Kanzmeier:
This is more than just „interesting“. - It has freeing effects upon physical and mental limits, which more or less restrict all of us.
I want to try and answer the first question in a simplified way, even so the real technique in the back is way deeper. Principally I am using subconscious physical reflexes, namely the „ Attention – Danger!“ - reflex and the „No Danger“ - reflex. These reflexes are rooted very deeply and are in themselves nearly impossible to control.
By an independent „internal movement“ which will become the dominant movement for the other, the outer visually perceptible movement is hidden towards the common cognitive reflex. So when I perform the described punch into the belly I am moving away with „internal movement“ after I approached him outwardly and after he reacted with the „attention-danger!“-reflex, whereby his muscles hardened automatically. - By this the body receives the „no danger“ signal, the defense can be lowered and the muscles become soft. At that time I am moving my fist deeply into the soft belly. This type of movement, also [called] „internal movement“, can also be applied over distance in which case it will elicit the same reflexes. This way distance is practically dissolved and punches to the same effect can be performed also from non-contact. As I already stated a punch is basically „just a movement“ until it arrives at contact.

KFSB:
Which are the training-methods in your style ? Do you practice a lot of tui shou or does the emphasis lie elsewhere ?

T. Kanzmeier:
For me tui shou is very important. The tui shou I am teaching differs significantly, as do many other things too, from the traditional tui shou. I put a lot of emphasis on working with the feet and to make the whole body freer and more flexible. It is also free tui shou, whereby one can arrive at a very good sense of ones body and at a significant increase of flexibility. Usually it seamlessly blends over into the acquisition of a formerly unknown homophonous whole-body movement, which is the basis for the acquisition of other principles. A very poignant node is the recognition of ones own shifting of momentum and ones own coordination in contact with a partner respectively opponent. - Because it is intended to reduce this shifting of weight and momentum more and more to then acquire a more economic, more effective and more wear-free way of coordinating and moving the body.
To this effect there are partner-exercises, like the throwing to the ground without leverage and force. Shifting ones weight while attempting this, everything will be blocked immediately.
One is searching for alternative „internal“ pathways of coordination to enable throwing free of force and leverage.
There is also to be mentioned the work with the long stick whereby one is learning to move the stick without momentum. You are working with the weight of the stick which the body follows. I also call this stick – tui shou.
Also there is a tai-chi form that is used for the recognition and acquisition of that understanding.
Then, maybe most importantly, I work with each student individually so that those principles will be physically and mentally within reach already from the first lesson onward.

KFSB:
There are several spectacular videos online where some demonstrations of your punching-techniques can be seen. Do you believe it is possible to gain an approximate idea of the principles of your style via such video-clips, or are they rather meaningless according to your opinion ? I ask to give an idea about that to people which may have come across those clips.

T.Kanzmeier:
Of course this lies within the eye of the beholder. But I think that you can see clearly the painful effect of those punches by the reaction of the punched one, even with the padded target and boxing gloves – especially where I only lay my hand on and punch then. ( At this point I want to publicly give thanks to the ones that volunteered and excuse myself for some misunderstandings that ensued.)
To find ultimate proof for oneself, one must have felt such thing oneself . I experience over and over again that even if one has stood besides and seen it on someone else, it is only really believed when one has felt it with ones own body.

KFSB:
How can one get into contact with you ? Do you conduct seminars where one can gain a more accurate picture of your methods?

T. Kanzmeier:
I can be reached via e-mail at torsten@inneres-boxen.com and under the phone # +49 (0)4 81 – 624 36. My website is at http://www.inneres-boxen.com . I am conducting seminars all over Germany on a regular basis – Seminars in the UK and overseas are in the making.

KFSB: Thank you very much for the interview!
* This is a reworked approximate translation of an interview originally conducted in German by Kung-Fu-Schule-Berlin.de – translation is not always literal to afford for a better reading and understanding of the key-principles discussed therein. Also some updating had to be done regarding the last question.